Longer term ttc #1

Questions, advice and support regarding medically assisted procreation. IVF and other assisted TTC methods.

Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby LorraineG » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:48 pm

Mrsk I'm sorry but that's a load of crap! Training? That's only going to be about injections...its not like you're performing the egg collection on yourself! I'm gonna play devils advocate and say maybe you should get a second opinion if your not happy that they are treating your case individually. Ask them outright what's involved in the training when your talking to them tomorrow and take it from there. Huge hug...this is not what you need after what you've been through this week xxx
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby Sarah83 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:09 pm

MrsK i second what Lorraine says. Not good enough. The training is just the injections etc. If you want to cycle sooner you need to push for this, dont accept them putting you off.
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MrsA » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:13 pm

Mrsk what clinic are you with? I’ve never heard of training. As someone who went straight into ivf on the back of a failed IUI if I could do it again I think I would have waited. It gives you a bit of extra time to prep and get your mind off it but that’s just me and my experience :)

Very up and down girls. Well just down really. This has hit me so hard. Harder then I ever thought it would. I saw my counsellor yesterday and although she wasn’t pushing it on my she did want me to open my mind to donor eggs. Not because I’m there but just because she thinks it’s likely that clinics might start pushing that on me as I’ve had two rounds with similar results. Right now I just don’t feel like it’ll ever happen. After doing absolutely everything in the last round to get such a crappy result it just seems mad to go again.
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MeanderGo » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:17 pm

MrsK that's really disappointing and I completely agree with Lorraine (I've had half a message drafted for 2 hours!). Go back with all your questions and demand some answers specific to you, or say you'll go elsewhere. It's an expensive process and very emotional and demanding. You don't need to feel like you're one of many on a long conveyor belt. And you def don't need training. Ridiculous... Even if you lose a month or two, better to be happy. We ended up losing 6 weeks in the end as af came early and we didn't have enough answers to start IVF straight away so deferred. Definitely the right choice though as we were so stressed about starting unprepared, but left it and were really excited starting this one. Give em the Spanish Inquisition tomorrow!!
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MeanderGo » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:22 pm

MrsA sorry you're feeling so low. It's really hard to pick yourself up after that disappointment when you've put so much effort in to hopefully overcome whatever problems there were. What tests have you both undergone, if you don't mind me asking? And I think it's a good idea to even get a little info on donor eggs. File it away then in the back of your brain and you might find the idea takes well or not. But at least you'll have considered it. And you might find someone who's gone down that route who can tell you their experience which might help? Time will help with feeling shit. It will get better, promise!
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MrsK19 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:38 pm

Thanks girls, as usual you all have great advice. I am conscious that my rush is connected to my desperation for bfp so that is also on my mind that I might regret rushing if it doesn't work out. MrsA that is so tough. This whole process is just so emotionally draining. I think you have been through so much over the last few months. We had our first iuis at the same time and you have been through 4 cycles since then. Each one of those will take a chip out of you. I feel like the iui has actually made it a bit worse for me because the timeframe is the same and the drugs are almost the same but the odds are just awful in comparison but the emotional drain is the same. Financially ivf is serious money but when the doc went through my odds of a live birth earlier I was a bit shocked, even thou knew it in the back of my mind, 38% I think she said for my age. So it could easily be 3 cycles for me with ivf to get there. That is terrifying, also that it might not happen is terrifying but it is the best chance we have in front of us. It is up to you but try to think about what you want to do next. Unless there is a medical reason for you not trying again then don't feel pressurised into anything you are not ready for. With the iui I think it might have just taken more out of you because it must feel like you have been through this 4 times now. Hope is really important in all of this and we also have to remember the science bit where we are dealing with some shit oddsat times which might make this journey really hard and long for some of us. We will get there thou, I have so much hope from the other girls that have gone before us. Don't give up.
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby LorraineG » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:47 pm

Mrsk I know this prob sounds like I'm contradicting myself but I do think a bit of a break might be beneficial but it should be on your terms not because they are fobbing you off for "training". Its more concerning to my mind that they didnt look at your background properly before the appointment.

Mrsa I think your counsellor was probably right to prepare you for hearing that. The answers here always seem to be if the same (or similar) protocol doesn't work a few times it's time to go to donor sperm/egg. It blindsided me when they mentioned DE after our 1st round failed. And you absolutely don't have to accept that yet if your not ready. Or like meander says look into it and just file the info away for the moment. Do you mind me asking how your last cycle went? Eggs collected/mature etc.? How many fertilised? Day 3/5 results? They say day 1-3 is egg domain and day 3-5 sperm DNA gets added in too so can give an idea of quality on both sides etc. If your not ready to analyse it all yet don't worry I know it takes time to get your head around it enough to want to talk about it. Personally I'd be taking all that info for a second opinion aswell...see what someone else thinks before you decide where you do or don't want to go. Thinking of you x

Meander is it trigger night tonight?? I cant wait to see how you and your super ovaries get on Thursday!
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MrsA » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:11 pm

Thanks girls - so both rounds had 11 eggs collected. In my first round of ivf seven were mature and 4 fertilised. In the second round with icsi 3 were mature and one fertilised. In first round 1 Made it to day 3 which we transferred and second round the one that fertilised made it to day 3. I spoke to embryologist who said for day 3 both embryos were excellent quality which my counsellor assured me they wouldn’t say if it wasn’t the case. I realise it could be worse but definetly terrified of going again in case all my eggs were immature or none fertilised. Also worried of an implantation issue due to the cramping I get each month at 7dpo but don’t even know how to start with that.
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MeanderGo » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:09 am

MrsA there are a number of options left that you can still take, even if you want to postpone the egg donor route for a while. Lorraine's post last Tuesday gave a few suggestions for other factors to look into which could help identify possible issues that haven't been checked yet. Sure half the girls who've been through this thread have found issues that were never identified before. Sly lil anti-fertility feckers are hide and seek experts! If you need to feel proactive, start looking into different tests and just collate the options. Give your body and your stress levels some peace over Christmas, lick those wounds, and you can start investigating in January.
And even if it comes to egg donation, once you've a bump growing wonderfully, that joy will overrule any doubts you had. Plus it gives you something to blame if they wreck your head as kids! ;-)
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MeanderGo » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:17 am

And yes Lorraine, triggered tonight. This week feels like an eternity!! Blood test for LH tomorrow morning as levels were low, but expecting all to go to plan. Can't believe there's no fingers crossed emoji... 10am Thursday morning is ec time!
By the way (I'm afraid to ask) what are those monthly train threads, like the November train, etc? Is it just everyone updating where they're at, testing and reporting to everyone else? It sounds intense!! I prefer our safe cozy lil thread :-)
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby LorraineG » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:00 am

Mrsa...please tell me to bog off if I'm overstepping but it sounds like an egg maturity and possible underlying sperm issue. This is all my opinion now but I feel like I've seen so much and I'd love to help you get to the bottom here. How long were you stimming on both cycles? Did they possibly collect to early leading to maturity issues? And if the embies are perfect on day 3 then I doubt you have an egg quality issue with the mature ones. As an aside there was recently a lady with serum who had egg collection, no mature eggs (or they didnt fertilise or something) and they left them an extra day to mature and got 3 more embryos. This was called "InVitro Maturation". And I think there was another lady who they did "rescue" icsi on her eggs when none fertilised with ivf. This prob wouldn't apply as you do icsi anyway right?
For investigations I would definitely be getting a DNA fragmentation test done on dh to make sure theres no underlying issues causing any invisible problems even if all other parameters are good. Might be worth doing Serums "hidden c" test too it cost around €300 I think and tests for infections high up in the uterus that would not show up on regular blood tests. It is a chlamydia test but different strain and not associated as an std...just in case you would be as mortified as me explaining to dh! I was clear but the fix is a simple course of antibiotics so very doable and has had massive impact on some ladies conceiving naturally after treatment. It's a similar course of antibiotics for dh if theres a dna-fragmentation or any other sperm issue. Its 40days, costs less than €50 and again loads of people on serums fb have had massive improvements...even if they had super sperm to begin with! And it's all done by post! Makes you wonder why these things are never offered here...€€€!
You could be doing these investigations in the background while you're letting your head and heart heal. DNA frag test can be done here with your clinic (about €300 I think?) Or you can courier sample to locus medicus lab in Athens which is really easy and a bit cheaper. If your interested I can explain in more detail... this post is long enough...can you tell I cant fecking sleep!!
I'd be doing these cheaper tests first before looking into immunes/rejection/food intolerances etc. as that honestly opens a whole new can of worms and if I'm honest its probably more related to miscarriage than failed implantation.
And (last thing honestly!) if you're worried about the cramping in tww ask to have progesterone tested and more progesterone pessaries or progesterone in oil injections as they are slower release. High enough progesterone should stop your period coming whether you're pregnant or not and will make sure your embie has time to implant if it's going to. It does also cause cramping but at least youd know it wasnt your period.
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby LorraineG » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:06 am

Meander...its always the way one minute its flying in the next its dragging! Best of luck for tomorrow! Fingers crossed it all goes smoothly and they can get your ovaries back to normal size asap!! With the baby trains it can be nice to have a few people due around the same time so you can compare how things are going etc while we're still waiting but we love positive updates and stories on here!! The baby trains on this site have gotten really quiet bit I'm sure there's loads other places too! Hopefully we'll all be moving on then shortly!! ;)
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MeanderGo » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:13 am

Ah, they're for the duration of pregnancy? I thought they were just to bfp and I thought that was pretty cutthroat!
Lorraine, again I'm in awe of your knowledge. Longer term ttc awards you an honorary PhD in all-thou-should-know-about-this-stuff :D
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby LorraineG » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:26 pm

Meander it's all self certified from the school of hard knocks!! I've issued myself a degree already so the PhD cert would look fab next to it!! :D :D
There used to be TTC trains on here...that's where I started but it seems to have whittled away to just us and some baby trains...not sure if that's comforting or sad!
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MeanderGo » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:36 pm

Ok, got some news back and things are not quite as straight forward as one would like. So would very much appreciate your views on what you would do in this situation. LH levels were low 2 days ago. Triggered last night and I should have been around 15 this morning. I was only 7. This doesn't have an impact on egg quality, but does impact the number of eggs that will be retrieved as many won't hit that threshold to be released. Doc indicated it could have a dramatic impact, from 20ish eggs to fewer than 5. Then there's still fertilisation and surviving to blast etc... So! Options are:
1) cancel cycle, drain follicles and start again (cycle isn't counted)
2) go ahead with EC and if no eggs are collected, clinic will put it down as follicle drain only (cycle isn't counted), or
3) go ahead with EC, hopefully get more than 1 egg, and see what happens (we use 1 of our 3 cycles).
Apparently this is very rare so very little data on it.
Other considerations - we have 3 cycles as part of the programme we’re on and this is our first attempt. Currently the only problem we know of is my pco and trying to get my ovaries to do what they’re supposed to. No known issues with implantation, sperm etc but haven’t investigated it. There are unlimited transfers as part of the programme, so my initial hope was to freeze a load of embies and then have that assurance to learn if there were any other issues (with no additional cycles being used up). But in fairness, that was being very idealistic-all-encompassing-planning-ahead. Thoughts anyone??
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby LorraineG » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:31 pm

Meander...why the hell cant things just be straightforward?! I honestly don't know much about lh levels and I've never heard of it being tested. I suppose the sensible thing to do is cancel and preserve your cycle. Having said that the fact that you have 3 cycles is a good thing and realistically the 1st is always going to be a learning cycle so you could keep going and see what you learn about fertilisation and growth etc. Or on the other side get a "free" learning on this as they will def up your lh next time. I know how bloody hard it is to psych yourself up to cycle and not even getting to egg collection is a massive blow. My advice is to sit in a quiet space and think about each option and which one you will least regrets. Only your hearts can answer. And there really is no wrong answer...just what feels most right for you. Best of luck!
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MrsA » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:07 pm

Meander - I’m sorry you’ve been thrown a curveball. If it were me I don’t know if I’d go ahead if I thought that they could cancel and have a better run next time. Again though that’s just me. I find no matter what opinions are given to you You’ll have a gut instinct of what’s right for you and go with that.
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby MrsA » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:13 pm

Lorraine you’re not overstepping at all. There Definetly seems to be a maturity issue. I’d be terrified if we went again there’d be no mature eggs. All follicles were where they should be at my scans and I stimmed for roughly 9 days. I had better growth in this round than my first yet results were worse and I’d taken all the supplements etc. Have review next week so will ask about dna frag then. Was thinking about asking for a scratch or a lap as well just so why not. I’m dreading review though as after two failed rounds I can’t see him suggesting anything but donor.
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby Sarah83 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:20 pm

So sorry to hear that Meander. Its so disappointing having a cycle cancelled. Iv had 3 cancelled in total but the second one i kinda wished we had gone ahead as we realised after it wasnt so bad a result for me and probably should have gone ahead (a dominant follicle but a few behind that werent so far behind). On my one cycle at home that I did actually get to egg collection, there was talk of cancelling again but we knew we may aswell push forward with possibly getting 2 eggs. We ended up with 4 eggs all fertilised and 2 blasts from that cycle. But I knew in my gut with that cycle I needed to see it through. Its such a hard one to call...on the one hand it would be good to see fertilisation rates etc, egg/sperm issues usually only come to light at that stage, or the lack of issues! So you could learn quite a bit if you push forward. But then again if you did only get the 1 egg, thats not ideal either considering how many potential eggs you could have collected...Its great you have the 3 cycle package, great reassurance there. I wish it was more clear cut and im sorry i dont have the best advice x
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Re: Longer term ttc #1

Postby LorraineG » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:26 pm

Mrsa...if he does mention about donor be clear that your not ready to think about it just yet and ask what other suggestions he has to improve maturity. Maybe meanders issue with lh might be relevant to maturity of eggs? Or am I wrong in thinking that the trigger is the finishing touch for egg maturation? Maybe they could do a double ovitrelle trigger instead of just one? I've only ever heard of the double trigger with serum but it might be worth asking the question? Once you have some more information you can sit down and really think about it all and hopefully a path will come clear for you x
Started on stims this evening and have all our flights over and accommodation booked...Athens here we come!! Getting excited about it today after the head melt of trying to organise everything last night!
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